By John Piper
33. Eddie Riley says...
First, let me say that I appreciate everyone keeping civil in this debate. Second, I would mention that several have mentioned that it is a tool to bring people to Christ, even after the marriage has been performed. I can say, in the south where I live (you know-the Bible belt) that most people know enough about the Bible and Christianity to tell you what you want to hear and then afterward do not follow through on their promises. This is one of the reasons that over the last 7 or 8 years of my ministry (14 total as a pastor) that I have learned to take with a grain of salt what I am told. This might be totally different in parts of the country so your experience might be the exact opposite of mine. But I try to follow the Bible (even though I don't profess to know it all and have come up short many times). But there is still one thing that disturbs me about Dr. Piper's statement that God gives us "permission" to marry unbelievers. Can someone point out in the Bible where He does that? If so, I will retract my original post. If not, I will say that we don't need to credit God with saying something that He does not say.
August 4, 2011
32. Scott Thornton says...
Dr. Luke - I liked your response in #24. I guess I was just wondering WWJD? Often Jesus was with sinners and was being criticized for it by the religious establishment. Often, in situations like this I do reflect on the example of our Lord. Maybe something as simple as Acts 10:38 can serve as a guide and model for us. To clarify what you called my mind teaser is simply this - I would sure hate to see us criticizing Jesus for marrying this couple if they we not Christians.
August 4, 2011
31. Dr. Luke Kauffman says...
Scott #30 I am not following you when you say, "and not performing the wedding." Your mind teaser is rather abstract, and I need your help.
August 4, 2011
30. Scott Thornton says...
Wow - I wonder if the couple that got married where Jesus turned the water into wine were Christians. It sure is a good thing that He was only involved in the beverages and not performing the wedding!
August 4, 2011
29. Fernando Villegas says...
To expand on what Jerry Thomas said, I think we should give John Piper the benefit of the doubt. I don't know how prepared he is when he answers these questions on these videos. Does he read the questions ahead of time? How carefully does he think through the answers beforehand? But generally, these kinds of situations are "off the cuff," as Mr. Thomas said, and it's probably not a good idea to get hung up on specific words he used. I think the general idea that he was trying to communicate was clear.
August 4, 2011
28. Fernando Villegas says...
I think Dr. Kauffman's practice in post #24 is an excellent example of how to work through this issue.
August 4, 2011
27. Fernando Villegas says...
John Miller, I stand by my final sentence in post #16, and I believe you may have misunderstood it. I'll take the blame for that because I forgot to add a phrase; the sentence should've read: "Remember that it is not only WHAT we do (that is important), but HOW and WHY we do it!" The part in the parentheses is what I meant to write but didn't. And note what I said: What we do IS important. You mentioned the Biblical texts that state the importantce of our works. However, you failed to take into account Biblical texts that state that the HOW and the WHY is also important. A classic example is 2 Cor 9:7, where Paul states that God loves a cheerful giver. So the "what" of giving, as important as that is, is rendered useless if it is not accompanied by the "how"--cheerfully. Or how about the example that you gave of Uzzah from 2 Sam 6:6. I agree with you, that although his intentions were good, he disobeyed the "what" and was punished accordingly. But if you study that entire narrative carefully, along with its parralel in 2 Chron 13 and 15, you will see that Uzzah would have never been put in the position to disobey the "what" if David had been obedient to the "how". See, it was good that David was bringing back the ark after it had been neglected since the reign of Saul. But God was very specific as to HOW the ark was to transported, and in the "how" David was wrong. Had they transported the ark using the poles and with the men who had been appointed to do so, Uzzah would not have had to touch the ark to keep it from falling. So in this case, the sin of David disobeying the HOW was greater than the sin of Uzzah disobeying the WHAT. I hope this has demonstrated that my sentence does in fact stand up to the standard of God's Word and is safe. I would love to hear your response.
August 4, 2011
26. Fernando Villegas says...
John Miller, I appreciate your response, and I think I get where you're coming from, now. I think what happened is that you assumed that a pastor performing a wedding would be paid for it, but that's not necessarily so. I do not charge anything for weddings. When a couple comes to me asking to be married, I explain to them that my salary is paid by the denomination I work for, and I do not charge anything for performing a wedding. If they decide to give a gift, I will graciously accept it; and generally I then give that gifts as an offering back to the church. That is why for me, on this issue the matter of financial gain is irrelevant.
August 4, 2011
25. Jerry Thomas says...
Bruce, thanks for the context, but I think the inference Pastor John was making, "off the cuff," was that there is none, outside of Christ, that acts righteously, therefore, ones non-righteous acts are sin. He was not saying God condoned the act of sin, which is any act of a sinner, but that God condones marriage since he ordained it, and the two are following a God-ordained act, just like sinners going to church. The act in general is right even though this specific act of righteousness in God's eyes is still sin.
August 4, 2011
24. Dr. Luke Kauffman says...
To marry an unsaved couple gives me no heartburn. They are not unequally "yoked." A pastor is there best choice. I do not give them a Christian ceremony. Instead, a civil ceremony with Scripture and prayers. May God bless my purest of intentions.
August 4, 2011
23. G. Pryor says...
We are free to read and interpret scripture as we will with the leading of the Holy Spirit. I am a firm believer in the authority of scripture in the life of a believer and do not denounce anyone whose belief and understanding are differnet than mine. But it does trouble me to see the lack of love we are commanded to have for all people. I have to believe that I was sent not only to the church I serve but the community in which we reside and therefore have an obligation to the people. Yes, to preach the gospel and lead them to Jesus but also to love them, care for them, weep for and with them. I am invited into a relationship with them through a Savior who loved me and wanted more for my life as he does their's. I routinely marry non-believer's and I guess my thought has been (right or wrong, God is my judge) that if this is one step that I can help this couple take toward God then I am taking the step with them. This world needs all the love and compassion it can get and some things are left to our discretion as the Spirit leads. For me I am willing to do this for the people of my community and understand fully the repercussion and ramifications of my actions.
August 4, 2011
22. John E Miller says...
Referring to Fernando Villegas' post #16, I would suggest that the final sentence is very unsafe and will not stand up to the standard of God's word. When it comes to the holiness of the believers walk (1 Peter 1:17) or the sinner's ultimate judgement at the Great White Throne (Rev. 20:12) it is a man's works or deeds for which he must account. In 2 Samuel 6:6, Uzzah no doubt acted with what he thought was the best of intentions. God thought otherwise!
August 4, 2011
21. John E Miller says...
If I may, I would like to answer Fernando's question. Any service a pastor or minister, or indeed any believer in Jesus performs, must be in keeping with the will of God. Where do we find our guide for such a parameter? God's word and God's will can never be divergent. I am sure that is beyond question. Scripture does not permit a believer to marry an unbeliever. Equally, a Christian service for an unbelieving couple performed by a Christian pastor is clearly reversing the divinely appointed order by which human beings can enjoy God's blessing. There is only one way to come into relationship with God, that is the way of repentance and faith in Christ. God's blessings in Christ and His arrangements of grace, including those through the service of other believers can only be enjoyed by those who have first been washed in the blood of Jesus. I believe that to serve God by marrying a couple who have both come to God this way is clearly a service carried out in God's will and according to God's word. Christian marriage is a most solemn and holy matter. Those who enter upon it do so in the deep acknowledgement that their greatest commitment is to Christ and then to one another. Those who are not Christians cannot begin to understand this. A pastor/minister marrying such a couple is really only providing a civil marriage ceremony, masquerading as something that is according to God, but without any reality of such. He is taking money under false pretences, serving mammon rather than God.
August 3, 2011
20. Juanita Gilbo=Ricard says...
It is right for a pastor to marry two unbelievers. It is better to marry them so they won't live in sin. And the pastor marrying them could lead to them getting saved and they might come to church because the pastor cared enough to marry them. Saying no to marrying two people who are in love could cause them to turn against the church and God. Even if they claim not to be believers, they did come to a pastor to get married. They did not go to a JP, so they must have some respect for what God says about marriage even if they do not realize it. Now if those two people are the same sex, then NO he should not marry them. That would definitely be sin.
August 3, 2011
19. Barb. Gerhard says...
I do not agree with him when he said he would marry everyone who comes to him, what if the couple are both from previous marrages and they are divorced because they met each other and had an affair and now wish to marry, when the original basis for the relationship was adultery? would he then overlook that and marry them anyway? If they got saved as a result of the pasto's counceling they then would have to leave a sinful relationship, Jesus said to the woman coult in adultery, " go your way and sin no more" the woman was at that point not a believer, as penticost had not come, Jesus was still on the earth" so she was not bornagain yet He still told her to leave her life of sin. If in that situation the pastor marries them, then at some point they get saved, God's word would very spesifically say to "leave your life of sin" there no exeptions, scripture elswhere, say " If a man divorces his wife and marries another he commits adultry, even though they are legally married it is still adultry acording to the words of Jesus. So a pastor has to be very careful of who he marries, even amongst believers this happens they just think they can pray a pray for forgiveness and go ahead and marry anyways, but God's word is very clear.
August 3, 2011
18. Bruce Parsons says...
"It is sin" but "God approves" Really!? Since when does God approve of sin? I would respectfully suggest that the use of the expression "whatsoever is not of faith is sin" is misapplied in this circumstance. The statement "whatsoever is not of faith is sin" is in reference to a Christian doing something when they do not have a conviction (faith) that it is not sinful (in the specific context of Rom 14 - eating meat). In that case, eating meat was not a sin - unless you were not sure and did it anyway. The problem being, if you were not sure if it was sinful, and did it anyway, you demonstrated a willingness to sin in the event that the thing in question was in fact sinful. This person did not eat with "faith" that it is ok, hence; "whatsoever is not fo faith is sin."
August 3, 2011
17. Fernando Villegas says...
By the way, John Miller, you wrote the following: "Scripture nowhere suggests that a Christian pastor should sell his services for financial gain. Acts 8 (Simon Magus) would suggest the strongest possible condemnation of such an act." But unless I missed something, there was nothing either in the video or the comment before you that mentioned anything about financial gain. Just out of curiosity, why did you bring that issue up, as it doesn't really have anything to do with this discussion?
August 3, 2011
16. Fernando Villegas says...
I've been thinking it over, and I'd have to say that overall, I think I agree with John Piper's position, at least in the context of the actual question he was asked. Marriage was intended by God for everyone, whether a believer or not. And if a couple is open to receiving Biblical counsel from us in preparation for one of the major events in their lives, perhaps that would open the door for them to be willing to receive Biblical counsel from us in other areas of their lives. Eddie Riley wrote: "[T]hey cannot be in the will of God and therefore I will not marry them....a couple who are not believers cannot be in the will of God so why would I knowingly be a part of that?" I can certainly respect that position, but I would ask us to consider the following: although it is true that an unbelieving couple is living overall outside of God's will, if that couple decides to get married--as opposed to, say, living together--would not they at least in that one area be considered living in the will of God. Whether they realize it or not, it is a step towards coming closer to God's will. That is why I would want to be a part of it--to redeem that moment for them and help them become aware that it is God who is working to draw them closer to him. As someone mentioned earlier, a justice of the peace is not going to be able to do that for them. Now, this is my personal conviction based on how I read the Scriptures. But I will not judge another pastor who has equally prayed and wrestled with this issue and has come away with a different conviction, just as I would hope they would not judge me for the conviction I hold. One more thing: let us never forget that although the discussion here must by necessity be generalized, ultimately we are dealing with individuals. The easy thing would be to say either, "I will never perform a wedding for an unbeliever" or "I will always perform a wedding for an unbeliever." But the wiser course would be to spend significant time with the couple, trying to get to know who they really are, trying to discern the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives. I'm sure there might be cases where, despite my convictions, I decide that I cannot in good conscience marry this particular couple. Remember that it is not only WHAT we do, but HOW and WHY we do it!
August 3, 2011
15. Eddie Riley says...
I have to agree with Bros. Haidle and Miller. Even though it is good to sit down with the unbelieving couple and share Christ with them I see nothing in scripture that gives us "permission" to wed unbelievers. The scripture does tell us to "come out from among them" and commands us to "be ye holy as I am holy", but nothing about permission to marry an unbelieving couple that I know of. I have caught a lot of grief for not marrying couples living together out of wedlock (even some who claim to be believers). My belief is-they cannot be in the will of God and therefore I will not marry them. Same here-a couple who are not believers cannot be in the will of God so why would I knowingly be a part of that?
August 3, 2011
14. Ronald Kadlecik says...
I agree with Pastor Piper also. The institution (for lack of a better word) of all marriage was ordained by God for all people. Persons marrying enter into an agreement with God (whether they know it or not). Sinners sin against God whether they believe in Him or not! The Church is the place sinners come to learn about God. A good place to start is in the pre-marriage
August 3, 2011
13. John E Miller says...
I would like to answer Steve's question, which I believe was directed to me. First, however, I must say that I believe Dean Haidle's position is scriptural and godly. Steve, that was a very good question and if I may I would like to answer it, based I believe on the teaching of God's word. If an unbeliever repents before God, receives Christ as his or her Saviour and is born again, being sealed with the Holy Spirit of God, they have a new life in Christ. His Lordship and God's word become supreme in their life and what was previously important must now be measured in a completely new light. On that basis the believing one would no longer feel that it was right in God's sight to proceed to set up in the unequal yoke of marriage with an unbeliever. A godly pastor would be biblically bound to explain this to both parties. He would encourage the believing one to make it a matter of prayer and to seek God's answer to his or her faith, according to His will. Ministers of Christ's Gospel are not there to give unbelievers the outward respectability of a Christian marriage service. Their responsibility is to explain to unbelieving applicants the only basis on which a Christian ceremony of marriage can be righteously performed.
August 3, 2011
12. Dean Haidle says...
The issue that I wrestle with the most regarding two unbelievers desiring to get married is, how can I as a pastor God to bless and join together two individuals who have no intention of living their lives to submit to HIM in their own lives let alone their marriage. Biblical marriage recognized by God is a man and a women entering into a covenant relationship with God, first and foremost, to make Christ the center of their marriage (HE'S the GLUE so to speak). If they are not believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, this is impossible. I whole heartedly agree that an initial sit down for several hours with the couple who ever they are to share with them the heart of God and His Word regarding marriage and of course the privilege of sharing the GOSPEL with them is so important, but I just don't see how we as pastors ordained by God to be a shepherd the flock(believers) (teaching, guiding, nurturing, protecting, directing) can lead a couple down the road of marriage when they have not made a personal commitment to Christ first in their own lives. That marriage is destined for divorce. If they are not concerned about living their individual lives for Christ how can I ask God to bless their marriage. The Justice of the Peace can do that.
August 3, 2011
11. Brian La Croix says...
I do weddings for non-believers all the time because it gives me the opportunity to tell them of their need for Christ. Will the liberal pastor down the street who doesn't believe you need to be saved tell them that? Nope. Will the Mayor, the boat captain, or the Justice of the Peace (since this is where they will go if you don't do it)? Nope. Their salvation is too important for me to say, "Sorry - but you aren't a Christian, so get married somewhere else. And good luck hearing about salvation and what God has in store for His children..." I get to share Christ as well as discuss the fact that in Christ they can have the kind of marriage God intended in the first place. Nothing in Scripture that forbids non-believers from marrying. So why should a pastor be involved? To help them find Christ. I have turned down weddings when other circumstances were involved, and some have turned down my participation because I require 4-6 sessions of pre-marital counseling. But I usually take every opportunity possible to bring Christ to a young couple.
August 3, 2011
10. Scott Shuffield says...
Jacob, I could not say because I don't know the people or the situation. But I am sure the Bible tells me to not marry a believer with an unbeliever, putting them in an unequally yoked situation. It just gets more confusing when we think about the "what-ifs." I am thrilled to hear that both are believers now, praise God! And what a blessing for you that God let you have a role in that.
August 3, 2011
9. Jacob Ricker says...
Thanks for your input Scott! I agree with you, we should not put a couple in a position to be un-equally yoked as the Bible teachs. And you are complete right, things get very confusing when you start the "what if" questions. Have a blessed day.
August 3, 2011
8. Scott Shuffield says...
Jacob, I could not say because I don't know the people or the situation. But I am sure the Bible tells me to not marry a believer with an unbeliever, putting them in an unequally yoked situation. It just gets more confusing when we think about the "what-ifs." I am thrilled to hear that both are believers now, praise God! And what a blessing for you that God let you have a role in that.
August 3, 2011
7. Jacob Ricker says...
Scott, for clarification, are saying that I should have bowed out after the young man received Christ as his Savior? Now both are believers and are not unequally yoked. This was the first time I had met them, I didn't know weather or not either one was a believer or not. I was new to the church and did not know them well at all yet. Had nothing changed in the young man's heart, I would more than likely bow out, which they didn't know I would have done. I greatly appreciate everyone input, thank you.
August 3, 2011
6. Val Garron says...
I can't even begin to tell you what a blessing it has been to meet with couples who want to get married who aren't already a part of the congregation! It is an opportunity to witness to the love of God, to plant seeds, and the church I serve is being revitalized by the young couples who are coming and joining. I never want to be the judge. I'll leave that up to God. In the meantime I'll lean toward grace believing that God will use me to share his love with anyone God puts in my path!
August 3, 2011
5. Scott Shuffield says...
I was eager to hear Piper's take on this question and after considering what he had to say I agree. Jacob, your situation did bring up an entirely different aspect that I think Steve is addressing. What if one is a believer...or one becomes a believer? I think you would have to bow out at that point. But John M., I think you too quickly assumed that it was being done for money. Maybe the right thing to do would be to agree to begin pre-marital counseling with unbelievers but refuse to accept any money for performing the wedding.
August 3, 2011
4. Jacob Ricker says...
Bro. Steve... Was that question directed to me or in general?
August 3, 2011
3. Steve Greene says...
How about one gets saved in counseling and the other does not? Does John recommend you bow out since they would be unequally yoked?
August 3, 2011
2. John E Miller says...
Scripture does not give license for a believer to marry an unbeliever. Scripture nowhere suggests that a Christian pastor should sell his services for financial gain. Acts 8 (Simon Magus) would suggest the strongest possible condemnation of such an act. Conducting a marriage ceremony and a burial service are entirely different and cannot be compared, before anyone suggests otherwise. Christianity is not for sale. Our Lord Jesus paid too high a price on the cross for any minister of the gospel to sell his services to unbelievers as a means of salving their consciences or deceiving them that they are Christians because they went through a "Christian religious ceremony of marriage".
August 3, 2011
1. Jacob Ricker says...
I completely agree with Bro. Piper. I have performed several wedding for non-believers. It is a great out-reach tool. I had a young couple come to me and ask if I would perform their wedding. During our first meeting, I asked them if they were believers. The bride-to-be said she was but the groom-to-be was not. I had the opportunity to share the life changing Message of Jesus Christ with this young man and he saw his need for Christ. He gave his life to Christ and now they are faithfully serving Christ. Does this happen all the time? No, however, but seed have been planted through the counseling. And after all, isn't that what it is all about? Sharing God's Love through teaching of His Word! Thank you for posting this great video!
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